[Caer Ibormeith]

This news is so very sad. An Air France plane is lost somewhere in the Atlantic between Brazil and Paris. There is little hope that there will be survivors. My heart goes out to all who are waiting to hear the worst about their loved ones.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html

[ukus]

Just terrible disappearing with 228 loved ones aboard. So sad , my heart goes out to their families.

Not the kind of news one wants to read at any time ..... but especially if you are flying out tonight!

[Caer Ibormeith]

Safe home, Karen.

[Caer Ibormeith]

It looks like they've found the wreckage.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html

[SilverMiniCooperS]

Just terrible disappearing with 228 loved ones aboard. So sad , my heart goes out to their families.

Not the kind of news one wants to read at any time ..... but especially if you are flying out tonight!

That is why I didn't post this yesterday!! The first thing I thought of was you when I first heard the news.

The only two Americans on board -- Michael Harris, 60, and his wife, Anne, 54 -- were identified by the couple's family and his employer. In addition, victims came from 26 other countries.

"Anne and Mike were indeed a beautiful couple inside and out, and I miss them terribly already," said Anne Harris' sister, Mary Miley.

Michael Harris was a geologist in Rio de Janeiro for Devon Energy, the largest U.S.-based independent natural gas and oil producer, according to a company spokesman.

This couple is from The Woodlands!! Of course all the local channels have been here an interviewed all their neighbors.

Have a good flight home Karen and we'll see you soon.

[mr dragon]

Other than that this is an humungous tragedy for all the people involved, what also surprised me is that I read today that the flight recorder 'black box' only emits a recovery location signal for thirty days. They've now got a race against time to find the thing- which may well be under hundreds or thousands of metres of ocean, somewhere in the Atlantic. If they don't find it they wont be able to work out what happened with that Airbus, or be able to understand if there is a potential problem with that particular aircraft that needs to be rectified. I think aircraft manufacturers may want to change that issue with their flight recorders- it's clearly very limiting. The whole process of having a 'black box' is to rectify problems, if they occur, to then make future air transport safer. Since most international air flight is over the sea, and the sea is very deep and extremely large in area, giving yourself only 30 days to find the thing seems a bit shortsighted, at least to me. Maybe there's a reason for it but it doesn't seem, at least to a layman like me, to make a lot of sense.

[SilverMiniCooperS]

I too was shocked to learn they only had thirty days to find that signal. Surely if they can make it last for thirty days, they coulkd make it last longer.

Not only is it very deep in that part of the Atlantic, it is extremely mountainous. It is a mountain range that extends from Iceland straight down to the southern Atlantic Ocean. It would be like trying to find a very small object in the Rocky Mountains - except this is under several miles of water. Even if they can pinpoint the exact location of the crash, it would be a daunting task.

[eddie2003]

It was my understanding from listening to media reports that they now think they haven't found the plane.

[Caer Ibormeith]

It was my understanding from listening to media reports that they now think they haven't found the plane.

This is true, Eddie. The debris they found is from another plane, so the search has to start from scratch.

[SilverMiniCooperS]

I also heard that this morning - so my question is - what was the other plane whose debris they have found?? No-one seems to be in the least concerned about it.

[JuanaLaLoca]

I also heard that this morning - so my question is - what was the other plane whose debris they have found?? No-one seems to be in the least concerned about it.

Oceanic 815!

[mr dragon]

I also heard that this morning - so my question is - what was the other plane whose debris they have found?? No-one seems to be in the least concerned about it.

Strange, all I've read so far over here is that they now think it's an oil slick from a ship!

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I assume it might take time for them to work out what happened here (if they can), it seems it could a number of things from what I read already, high altitude stall etc. Terrible for the families though.

[Caer Ibormeith]

The plane wreckage has been found along with 16 bodies. The theory now is that the speed regulator wasn't functioning properly, and a plane going either too fast or too slow very likely would have broken apart mid air. Air Bus had warned of the problem and told the airlines to replace the parts, but Air France didn't in this case. They were in the process of replacing the speed regulators on their planes when this happened. Unfortunately, Flight 447 was flying with the old part. The plane should never have been allowed in the air, IMO.

Again, my heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones. It has to be devastating for them.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/ ... pstoryview

[mr dragon]

From what I've read over the last few days the freezing of the 'pitot' tubes issue- because of a heating failure (ie the freezing of the intake inlet on the wing- which tells the aircraft systems how fast the plane is going), has been the issue that they've been speculating on for a while. However, I've also read that both Air France and Airbus are blaming one another over this! The problem was recognised a while back with other some other A330's- apparently, but Air France also claim they were starting to change them against Airbus's advice, hence why they hadn't completed their over haul with all their AF A330's. Apparently Airbus wanted to Air France to test them first, before changing the heating system for the 'pitot's. At least that's what Air France say, and what Airbus also say alternately. My guess is- sooner or later this will come out in the wash. No one fully knows exactly what the problem was, or who is to blame as of yet.

Incidentally. My mate Steve (a commercial 737 pilot) told me the other day about about this issue with commercial aircraft flying at that high altitude, when we were chatting about this story. Apparently it's called- 'coffin corner'. Basically if you go too fast at that height- you stall, but if you go too slow- you also stall. There is very little margin of error of speed, in between, that you have to adhere to when you are at that altitude in a commercial aircraft- the speed has to be kept very precise. Worse, if you do stall at that height (in that low air pressure) with a large commercial jet liner, there isn't a lot you can do about it to get out of it. The plane goes into a more or less, uncontrollable free fall stall, and can also just break up because of it, or alternatively just go into a nosedive (because of the stall) that usually can't be corrected in a commercial aircraft of that size. So I guess if all the air speed intake valves did freeze up, the computer systems would have also probably gone haywire as a result, the pilots would have had to switch off the autopilot- but the aircraft wouldn't have known how fast it was going (which would have then caused a major problems for the pilot's at that altitude) therefore the pilot's wouldn't have known what speed they were at- hence a possible high altitude stall that became uncontrollable. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see if that was what caused it- it's all speculation in the mean time. Horrible circumstances either way.

I hope I haven't put any one off flying by mentioning that!

[ukus]

Thanks for the info from Steve. Wow it's so scary when you learn more about it...... it's a bloody miracle that there haven't been more losses. I hope when it happened it happened very quickly for them, those last few moments must have been terrifying, bless them all.

[SilverMiniCooperS]

About the air speed when travelling through storms - that's about what we were told.

What I heard about changing the thingys is that Airbus recommended it but Air France says they were told there was no big rush replacing them. I guess it's a case of he said/she said, but I'm sure there's a paper trail somewhere!

They found 8 more bodies last night also - and of course the tail.

[mr dragon]

I guess we'll have to wait and see. When I flicked through the news the day before yesterday I saw a lot of people were giving their own theories in the comment section of the Times. I had to laugh. The truth is, no one really knows as of yet. We'll have to wait for the real experts to give their conclusion. Though, I do have to say one thing. This is not an anti-French thing, because I'm not Anti- French. I like France as a country. However, the French do have a bit of a bad reputation when it comes to air crash investigations. They sometimes seem to spend more time blaming everyone else, and their cat, rather than just objectively getting to the bottom of the problem. The same thing happened with the Concorde Air France crash years ago. In the end it was international air safety investigators, some from the UK, that found out what was probably the actual issue that caused the crash. Ironically, in that case and in the end, it wasn't really the fault of Air France. It was a small strip of metal, unauthorised by the manufacturer and badly and incorrectly fitted, that fell of a US airlines DC10 on the runway that lead to the crash. Yet the French were so self protective over investigating the issue before anyone knew what the problem was- purely in case anything was to blame by Air France. In the end it turned out that Concorde had an anomaly in it's design that could make it vulnerable to something like this happening, while another plane from another country - via complete negligence by that airline- caused that inherent problem to become a reality. In the end the blame could be spread to several reasons including an un-for-seen error in Concorde's design that made it vulnerable, no one was fully to blame. However for some reason, the French are very protective over not being blamed for anything, occasionally, as a culture. I hope Air France or the French industrial arm of EADS don't take that view with this crash, because it's very unhelpful when trying to work out what the actual problem was in reality- regardless of who is to blame! People just need to get to the facts in order to sort out a problem that has occurred, particularly when other people's lives are at stake....

[ukus]

Well time has run out for finding the black box. They have found over 50 bodies, including that of the pilot. I guess we will never know what happened to this flight other than speculating that the weather played a part. Bless them all.

[SilverMiniCooperS]

I still don't understand why they make those black boxes to ping for only thirty days. I think I read the other day, there is a company who specializes in finding such things, and can still do so using sonar and such. They were the ones that found the plane that went into the Atlantic some years ago....I thinks it was the one that one of the pilots ditched on purpose - suicidal prat.

[Mr Retro]

Well time has run out for finding the black box. They have found over 50 bodies, including that of the pilot. I guess we will never know what happened to this flight other than speculating that the weather played a part. Bless them all.

The evidence is pointing to the plane breaking up in mid air. All 50 bodies that were recovered were all nude or practically so. This indicates the air speed was so great that when the plane broke apart, it ripped away every one's clothing. This also means that everyone was dead before they hit the water. It happened so quickly, they didn't suffer, thank God.

[ukus]

I hope you are right about it being quick Mr.R.

I have to say when I was up on my flight just after it all happened, I couldn't help but think how terrifying it must have been. Just awful.
You simply have to keep in mind that the number of flights that go out every day, it is still a very safe form of travel. It's just that when it happens so many people are involved and being up in the air makes it a bit scary.

[SilverMiniCooperS]

I heard that it would have been a very quick death Karen. At that speed and altitude, I doubt they they even knew what hit them, so to speak.

[mr dragon]

I think they probably would have fallen unconscious very quickly due to the cabin depressurisation.

Amateur people (like me) can speculate on what happened as 'arm chair theorists', but my guess is it was the air speed indicator valves- because it's not the first time that particular plane has had that same problem from what I read. It's funny, I actually did ask my brother if he was flying back to Sing on an A330 on Sunday when we were going to the airport.....

It's a shame that it's unlikely they'll find the black boxes now- they really do need to know what happened. Apparently it's the battery that only lasts for thirty days- hence why the signal only lasts that long. Maybe there's a technical reason why it's that way, but you also want to ask why as a layman.

[Caer Ibormeith]

Apparently it's the battery that only lasts for thirty days- hence why the signal only lasts that long. Maybe there's a technical reason why it's that way, but you also want to ask why as a layman.

Especially since there are so many flights over deep water and heavily forested areas.

[ukus]

Dang .... another airbus down.

SAN'A, Yemen (June 30) –- A passenger jet from Yemen with 153 people on board crashed in the Indian Ocean early Tuesday as it tried to land during heavy wind on the island nation of Comoros, and search teams rescued a child from the sea, officials said.
There were 142 passengers and a crew of 11 Yemenis on board when the Airbus A310, which had set off from the Yemeni capital of San'a, went down shortly before landing in Moroni, on the main island of Grand Comore, Yemeni civil aviation deputy chief Mohammed Abdul Qader said.
Most of the passengers were from Comoros, returning from Paris. Those on board included families with children and there were at least three babies on the flight, he added. France said 66 on board were French nationals.
Comoros immigrations officer, Rachida Abdullah, told The Associated Press that a child was rescued from the sea. She said that three bodies have also been retrieved, along with debris from the plane, but that no other survivors have been recovered so far.
Abdul Qader, the Yemeni official, said the child was 5 years old. He said it was too early to speculate on the reasons for the crash, adding that the flight data recorder hadn't been found.
"The weather was very bad ... the wind was very strong," he said, adding the windy conditions hampered rescue efforts. Abdul Qader said wind speed was 40 miles per hour (61 kilometers per hour) as the plane was landing.

[SilverMiniCooperS]

I heard about this latest crash late last night - at the tail end of Nightline. This does not bode well for Airbus. To think I've flown them many times with Lufthansa.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/ap_ ... lane_crash