[wakeyboy]

Swiss voters have backed a ban on minarets...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm

Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters from 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban, Swiss news agency ATS reported.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

Opponents say a ban would amount to discrimination and that the ballot has stirred hatred.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which had urged voters to reject a ban on minarets, fearing unrest among the Muslim community and damage to Switzerland's relations with Islamic countries.

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

Our correspondent says voters worried about rising immigration, and with it the rise of Islam, have ignored the government's advice.

Islam is the most widespread religion after Christianity in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.

Supporters of a ban claim that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.

'Political symbol'

The president of Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC that if the ban was implemented, Switzerland's Muslim community would live in fear.

"This will cause major problems because during this campaign in the last two weeks different mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.

"So with the campaign... the Islamaphobia has increased very intensively."

Sunday's referendum was held after the People's party collected 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months calling for a vote.

SVP member of parliament Ulrich Schluer said the referendum campaign had helped integration by encouraging debate. He rejected the charge of discrimination.

"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.

"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."

To become law, a majority of canton voting districts must approve the referendum result, as well as a majority of voters.

In recent years many countries in Europe have been debating their relationship with Islam, and how best to integrate their Muslim populations.

France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques in Cologne.

This is the wrong decision IMO.

A minaret is not a political symbol or a means of transmitting Sharia law for goodness sake!

Its no different to the spire on a church.

The government should never have called a referendum as its not the business of anyone to subjugate a mainstream world religion. This is the tyranny of the majority I feel, and why referenda are not always a good idea.

Stop banning minarets and headscarves on the continent! You have no right. It only serves to anger certain individuals and make integration even less likely. Does nothing for race relations.

[Caer Ibormeith]

You're right, Wakey.

Do the Swiss have anything like our Bill of Rights? I can't believe this is legal.

[mr dragon]

:smt045 You're right, Wakey.

Do the Swiss have anything like our Bill of Rights? I can't believe this is legal.

I'm not sure how the Swiss law system works, though I suspect the Swiss Supreme court wont pass it into law. I agree that it's not the way forward. But it was a democratic referendum for a proposal in their country. People have to accept that is democracy, whether they think it's a good idea or not. Nothing has actually been banned, they just took a referendum and the result was 57 per cent who voted said they want a ban on any more minarets being built. 'Banning' a piece of architecture is obviously silly and I don't think that's the right way to deal with the situation, but it does show that there are concerns and problems in some European countries- particularly some of the smaller ones that have had quite a high influx of Muslim immigrants over the years. They partly feel like their culture, that has existed for centuries, has been 'invaded' and a proportion of these people aren't integrating. They have the same problem in the Netherlands (particularly in Rotterdam), which is also a small country. I know what I've written isn't very politically correct, and I would have voted against the ban if I were Swiss because I don't believe in that kind of thing, however when you have had very tolerant societies like the Swiss or the Dutch suddenly reversing their tolerance it means there is a problem with some of the people who aren't integrating in their societies, and they're concerned about it.

[wakeyboy]

:smt045 You're right, Wakey.

Do the Swiss have anything like our Bill of Rights? I can't believe this is legal.

I'm not sure how the Swiss law system works, though I suspect the Swiss Supreme court wont pass it into law. I agree that it's not the way forward. But it was a democratic referendum for a proposal in their country. People have to accept that is democracy, whether they think it's a good idea or not. Nothing has actually been banned, they just took a referendum and the result was 57 per cent who voted said they want a ban on any more minarets being built. 'Banning' a piece of architecture is obviously silly and I don't think that's the right way to deal with the situation, but it does show that there are concerns and problems in some European countries- particularly some of the smaller ones that have had quite a high influx of Muslim immigrants over the years. They partly feel like their culture, that has existed for centuries, has been 'invaded' and a proportion of these people aren't integrating. They have the same problem in the Netherlands (particularly in Rotterdam), which is also a small country. I know what I've written isn't very politically correct, and I would have voted against the ban if I were Swiss because I don't believe in that kind of thing, however when you have had very tolerant societies like the Swiss or the Dutch suddenly reversing their tolerance it means there is a problem with some of the people who aren't integrating in their societies, and they're concerned about it.

Democracy isn't about mob rule. Its not just about the majority having their say its about the values of a democratic society to represent all members of that society. To respect the rights of all.
The Swiss shouldnt be holding referenda on such an issue because its quite frankly dumb and doesnt achieve anything.
You say it shows that there is a problem with integration? Maybe its because of referenda like this in part! We have a problem with muslims not feeling they're a part of our society, I know, lets ban them from having visible places of worship!

A democracy is only about majority rule come election time. Then its up to the elected officials to uphold the values of the state and the consitution (if it has one) . It shouldnt be about "who likes gays?" "who likes muslims?" "lets ban the head scarf?" What kind of society is that? No doubt one we'd condemn if it werent western.

So unfortunately, I'll poke my nose where many may think it doesnt belong and say that Switzerland doesn't have a right to hold such a referendum and pretend to be a western democracy.

[mr dragon]

Wakey, you're funny. I'm not even defending the outcome of the referendum because I wouldn't have voted that way- and I also think it was a very bad idea to have one over something like that (nb I agree with you regarding that). However referendums are democratic, and democratic societies do hold them. For example- do you think we should have a referendum on an issue like joining the Euro if it's ever proposed? I think we should. Referendum's are actually a part of a democratic society.

If you want my honest opinion I do think it shows there are certain problems with integration. Before this countries like the Netherlands and Switzerland had a very open and tolerant view towards immigration (more so than the UK) yet they've found in some ways it has caused them problems. They assumed that people would just automatically integrate into their societies because they are generally very open and generous as societies- particularly with welfare. What they have found is that despite all that it hasn't always worked very well- particularly with some (but by no means all) Muslims. Now, you probably could argue that it's their own fault (and I think it's also our own fault here in the UK for not always dealing with these integration issues always very well), but that doesn't belie the fact that we are now seeing a reversal of reaction to it in those societies (and you can see the same thing here in other ways- the rise of the BNP etc). That indicates that there is a problem, and it also means that some of these people haven't integrated very well, and some of the people who already live there aren't very happy about it (I'm not supporting their views whatever they may be, I'm just looking at it objectively). A lot of Dutch people in the last few years have started to become very frustrated that their own very liberal and very fair and balanced laws get mis used by some of the immigrants who don't want to integrate into their society at all, but do expect to have all their 'rights' under Dutch law upheld. Unfortunately that particular grouping is mostly people who also happen to be Muslim. And by that I don't mean ALL people who happen to be Muslims, or even the large majority of Muslims who immigrate.

If you're suddenly seeing all this happen in different European countries (which tended to be very tolerant before)- it indicates that there is a problem with some of the immigration and integration. Why else would societies that were once very tolerant and open suddenly start to show reactions this way- and it's not just in Switzerland, the Netherlands, France or Denmark- it's happening in another form here in the UK too with the sudden rise in popularity of the BNP. I don't agree with many of these 'reactions' in terms of 'banning' and I believe the same thing as you- that we uphold the equal rights of ALL citizens equally whatever creed, colour or religious background. That's an irreducible axiomatic fundamental principle for me personally- to me that's what being British is, and has always, been about. So while I don't agree with some of these ideas of so called bans (and I certainly DON'T agree with any of this regarding any motivation by racism or anti-Islamism with some people), I think it's probably about time we stopped skirting around the issue and openly recognise that some (though not by any means ALL) parts of Muslim society are not always integrating very well into our Western European value system, and we need to find some solutions. And, I'm not the only person pointing this out, there are mainstream Muslim's in British society who are very well integrated, who are also saying the same thing.

[red dragon]

Swiss voters have backed a ban on minarets...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm

Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters from 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban, Swiss news agency ATS reported.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

Opponents say a ban would amount to discrimination and that the ballot has stirred hatred.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which had urged voters to reject a ban on minarets, fearing unrest among the Muslim community and damage to Switzerland's relations with Islamic countries.

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

Our correspondent says voters worried about rising immigration, and with it the rise of Islam, have ignored the government's advice.

Islam is the most widespread religion after Christianity in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.

Supporters of a ban claim that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.

'Political symbol'

The president of Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC that if the ban was implemented, Switzerland's Muslim community would live in fear.

"This will cause major problems because during this campaign in the last two weeks different mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.

"So with the campaign... the Islamaphobia has increased very intensively."

Sunday's referendum was held after the People's party collected 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months calling for a vote.

SVP member of parliament Ulrich Schluer said the referendum campaign had helped integration by encouraging debate. He rejected the charge of discrimination.

"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.

"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."

To become law, a majority of canton voting districts must approve the referendum result, as well as a majority of voters.

In recent years many countries in Europe have been debating their relationship with Islam, and how best to integrate their Muslim populations.

France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques in Cologne.

This is the wrong decision IMO.

A minaret is not a political symbol or a means of transmitting Sharia law for goodness sake!

Its no different to the spire on a church.

The government should never have called a referendum as its not the business of anyone to subjugate a mainstream world religion. This is the tyranny of the majority I feel, and why referenda are not always a good idea.

Stop banning minarets and headscarves on the continent! You have no right. It only serves to anger certain individuals and make integration even less likely. Does nothing for race relations.

disagree it is the right decision and democracy has spoken, the minarets are a symbol of influence and power. It is the right decision and the people have spoken ( even though the Swiss are the biggest bunch of racist and obnoxious people you could ever meet)