[LollyB]

Philip the Handsome? Yeah, I'll bet he was still handsome when Juana LaLoca opened his coffin...and continued to his him as he rotted...yeaachhh...

[BlueEmperor]

Yeah, that was a little creepy, Juana.

B.E.

[JuanaLaLoca]

What do you mean?! My husband was so hermoso!!! If you could have seen him in his coffin as I did, you would have wanted to kiss him, too!

Well, at least our son Carlos eventually became Holy Roman Emperor. And the Spaniards even recognized him by calling him Carlos Quinto (the Fifth), even though he was only their first Carlos. They weren't too happy with a King who only spoke German, though (although I imagine they were even more upset when the French Philip V came along later, after Carlos II 'el Hechizado' died without an heir), or that he spent a great deal of his reign fighting out of the country fighting holy wars and despoiling the country to pay for them. But it was he who finally united the kingdoms of both of my parents under one monarch.

[BlueEmperor]

What do you mean?! My husband was so hermoso!!! If you could have seen him in his coffin as I did, you would have wanted to kiss him, too!

I'll have to take your word for that, Juana.

Well, at least our son Carlos eventually became Holy Roman Emperor. And the Spaniards even recognized him by calling him Carlos Quinto (the Fifth), even though he was only their first Carlos.

Well, he was the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, but I believe he officially ruled in Spain as 'King Carlos I', no?

They weren't too happy with a King who only spoke German, though (although I imagine they were even more upset when the French Philip V came along later, after Carlos II 'el Hechizado' died without an heir), or that he spent a great deal of his reign fighting out of the country fighting holy wars and despoiling the country to pay for them.

I don't know. I would have thought that, by combining the heritage of the German House of Habsburg, the French House of Burgundy, and the Spanish heritage he inherited from yourself, your son transcended ethnic and national boundaries.

Incidentally, you must be confused. Your son didn't speak German. Having grown up in the Burgundian Low Countries, he spoke French and Flemish. He learnt some German, as well as Spanish, in which I believe he became fluent. Indeed, it was said of the Emperor Charles V that he spoke: "Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to his horse".

B.E.

[JuanaLaLoca]

His official title in Spain may have been Carlos I, but the Spaniards generally called him Carlos V (Quinto). His court portraits are labeled as such, and they still call him that to this day.

I was pretty sure that in my Spanish history classes I had learned that the Spaniards were dismayed to acquire a young king who spoke German. Perhaps it was Flemish; that is somewhat similar to German, isn't it (in the same family of languages, as opposed to Romance)? However, even though he might have lived in the Low Countries, being raised by the Habsburgs, would their primary language have been German? The French heritage would not have counted for much, since there was much antagonism between the countries, and he had little of the Spanish influence, having been raised outside of the country. I believe he spoke little or no Spanish when he arrived in Spain, although I suppose he would have learned some as his reign continued, even though he was absent for long periods while his wife Isabel essentially ruled in his place.

[JuanaLaLoca]

I found an interesting site if you want to learn more about Charles V and the reaction of the Spaniards to his succession. It didn't say what language he spoke, however. Here is an excerpt on the initial reaction (and subsequent reactions were not much better, and perhaps even worse):

The succession itself caused slight divisions within Spain. Although some Spaniards hurried to the Netherlands in order to court the new king's favour, others wanted a regency based around Charles' infant brother, Ferdinand, who would rule as the eventual heir; he had been born within Spain and would, hopefully, have Spanish interests at heart. Others supported the rights of Joanna to remain as Queen until she died, with Charles acting only as a regent.

Charles' personage also caused discontent, although historians disagree as to whether these included major grievances, or simple grumblings. Not only was Charles seventeen, but he had never even been to the peninsular: Joanna had spent her married life in the Netherlands - the region where Charles was born - and when she returned to Castile as Queen, Charles remained behind with three of his sisters. Some Spaniards questioned whether the king was too inexperienced, too ignorant, or even too uninterested to rule Spain properly.

http://europeanhistory.about.com/librar ... 91401a.htm

[BlueEmperor]

His official title in Spain may have been Carlos I, but the Spaniards generally called him Carlos V (Quinto). His court portraits are labeled as such, and they still call him that to this day.

I suspect you're probably right. Obviously, his title as Holy Roman Emperor would have taken precedent over his titles as King of Aragon and Castile, etc. It wouldn't surprise if, even in Spain, he was known as 'Carlos Quinto' rather than as 'Carlos Uno'.

I was pretty sure that in my Spanish history classes I had learned that the Spaniards were dismayed to acquire a young king who spoke German. Perhaps it was Flemish; that is somewhat similar to German, isn't it (in the same family of languages, as opposed to Romance)?

It might have been Flemish, which is closely related to Dutch, but I'm fairly certain that he's first language was French.

However, even though he might have lived in the Low Countries, being raised by the Habsburgs, would their primary language have been German? The French heritage would not have counted for much, since there was much antagonism between the countries, and he had little of the Spanish influence, having been raised outside of the country.

His grandfather, the Emperor Maximilian I, was born in Wiener Neustadt in Austria and would likely have spoken Austrian, which does sound a lot like German. His mother, Mary of Burgundy, obviously, would have spoken French. Most of her lands, however, were in the Low Countries , which is where her grandson may have picked up his Dutch/Flemish. But I am absolutely certain that the Emperor Charles V's first language was French. Indeed, it was one of the things he shared with France - his mother tongue and many French cultural nuances, having made many visits to Paris in his youth. But, you are right, his relationship with the French kings was, at best, ambiguous. But he also inherited the tradition political and dynastical enmity between the Royal House and the Burgundian branch of the House of Valois - a state of affairs that was amplified when he became Holy Roman Empire and King of Aragon and Castile.

B.E.

[JuanaLaLoca]

His official title in Spain may have been Carlos I, but the Spaniards generally called him Carlos V (Quinto). His court portraits are labeled as such, and they still call him that to this day.

I suspect you're probably right. Obviously, his title as Holy Roman Emperor would have taken precedent over his titles as King of Aragon and Castile, etc. It wouldn't surprise if, even in Spain, he was known as 'Carlos Quinto' rather than as 'Carlos Uno'.
B.E.

Probably right?

Actually, it would have been 'Carlos Primero'.

Interestingly, when I searched for 'carlos i of spain' I got very few hits for him; lots and lots for Juan Carlos. When I searched for 'carlos v of spain', I got plenty of hits.

[BlueEmperor]

Probably right?

Okay, okay, definately right! Jeez.

Actually, it would have been 'Carlos Primero'.

I stand corrected... but his first language was French. Humph! :twisted:

Interestingly, when I searched for 'carlos i of spain' I got very few hits for him; lots and lots for Juan Carlos. When I searched for 'carlos v of spain', I got plenty of hits.

That's interesting. It's probably because there have only been four Spanish kings named Charles, of which the Emperor Charles V was one. If there's been another 'King Charles V' since then (or if there's one in the future), it might cause some confusion.

B.E.

[JuanaLaLoca]

That's interesting. It's probably because there have only been four Spanish kings named Charles, of which the Emperor Charles V was one. If there's been another 'King Charles V' since then (or if there's one in the future), it might cause some confusion.

B.E.

Good point. The future monarchs will have to be careful not to name their sons Carlos (maybe that's why the present one is Juan Carlos). I suppose they could call him (if it happens) 'Carlos Quinto Segundo'.

[BlueEmperor]

I had wondered about that actually. It occurred to me that his father, Don Juan, Count of Barcelona, was known as 'King Juan III' to Spanish monarchists prior to the restoration. Of course, the Spanish dictator, Gen Francisco Franco, passed over Don Juan in favour of his son, so he never formally reigned and officially renounced his claim to the throne in favour of his son. However, when the Count died in 1993, King Juan Carlos had his father buried with royal honours in the Royal Crypt of the monastery of San Lorenzo del Escorial as 'King Juan III'. It does rather beg the question, then, why King Juan Carlos didn't choose to reign as 'King Juan IV'. I guess we know now why he didn't decide to reign as 'King Carlos V'. He didn't want to be confused with or upstaged by his famous Habsburg predecessor.

B.E.

[DaftDevonian]

I was trying to remember the name of which Spanish
King had collected all the fabulous clocks
I saw while visiting Spain in '73 (turns out there were
at least two who collected clocks Charles IV and Philip V)
and I came across this page, about the Spanish
Crown jewels:

SPANISH CROWN JEWELS

Thought you might find it interesting.

[JuanaLaLoca]

I had wondered about that actually. It occurred to me that his father, Don Juan, Count of Barcelona, was known as 'King Juan III' to Spanish monarchists prior to the restoration. Of course, the Spanish dictator, Gen Francisco Franco, passed over Don Juan in favour of his son, so he never formally reigned and officially renounced his claim to the throne in favour of his son. However, when the Count died in 1993, King Juan Carlos had his father buried with royal honours in the Royal Crypt of the monastery of San Lorenzo del Escorial as 'King Juan III'. It does rather beg the question, then, why King Juan Carlos didn't choose to reign as 'King Juan IV'. I guess we know now why he didn't decide to reign as 'King Carlos V'. He didn't want to be confused with or upstaged by his famous Habsburg predecessor.

B.E.

For a second, you had me there, as I could not remember any Kings of Spain called Juan. But of course, they were of the House of Trastamara, Kings of Castilla, prior to the unification of Spain. It is interesting that the Kings of Spain number themselves from the line of Castilla. Isabel's husband Fernando II of Aragon was V in Castilla, and the subsequent Fernandos took it from there. I have also always found it interesting that Felipe el Hermoso is considered Felipe I, although he was really regent.

I did not realize that Juan Carlos' father had been entombed in the Royal Pantheon in the Escorial. I had been there prior to that time, and they pointed out that there was only room for Juan Carlos and Sofia left. If Juan Carlos ceded his place to his father, I wonder where he will be laid to rest.

[JuanaLaLoca]

I was trying to remember the name of which Spanish
King had collected all the fabulous clocks
I saw while visiting Spain in '73 (turns out there were
at least two who collected clocks Charles IV and Philip V)
and I came across this page, about the Spanish
Crown jewels:

SPANISH CROWN JEWELS

Thought you might find it interesting.

It looks interesting, Daft! Thanks!

[LollyB]

"The Spanish Crown Jewels"???

Oh, the possibilities are endless! :lol:

[BlueEmperor]

For a second, you had me there, as I could not remember any Kings of Spain called Juan. But of course, they were of the House of Trastamara, Kings of Castilla, prior to the unification of Spain.

There was also King Juan II the Great of Aragon and Navarre (1425-79) who, like King Juan II of Castile (1406-54), was also a member of the House of Trastámara.

It is interesting that the Kings of Spain number themselves from the line of Castilla. Isabel's husband Fernando II of Aragon was V in Castilla, and the subsequent Fernandos took it from there. I have also always found it interesting that Felipe el Hermoso is considered Felipe I, although he was really regent.

The numberings of monarchs in these kinds of situations can prove quite problematical. Indeed, we had quite a problem in this country in 1952 when Queen Elizabeth II came to the throne, as her Scottish subjects reacted angrily to the the use of "the Second" after Her name, as Queen Elizabeth I was never Queen of Scots. As far as the Scotch were concerned, the present Queen was 'Queen Elizabeth "the First" of Scots'. It caused such a row that red letter boxes bearing the EIIR cipher were blown up north of the border.

B.E.

[Ben]

Catherine Parr, definitely. She was the only one who didn't marry Henry because of factional politics and rivalry. She also managed to remain above faction after becoming Queen and was able to influence Henry to a greater extent than some of his most trusted advisors. Though she never really contributed anything significant to the closing years of Henry's reign she stopped too much damage being done by the ever warring factions of the court.